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Soulard

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re: What is under preforming?

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Ok this is a whole thread from the side note I made in this thread

Pineaplexprs wrote:

On a side note, maybe i should start another thread on this but lets just see what ppl say here atm. What is an acceptable cut off for just bad numbers? At the time of it when I told Gaz he had to leave I felt really bad about it and I know some of the other raiders did not necessarily agree with it. However, looking back if a dps is below both the tanks we just cannot accept that as good enough to be on a progression fight.

That being said what would the line be? is it just a judgement call? Somefights there will be mechanics to take into consideration because some ppl get stuck with better or worse "jobs". But Mag is pretty straight forward for all the dps.


We are by no means a 'hardcore' guild and I do not think that anyone wants that. But we are a guild who works on progression, and for that I believe we need some min requirements other than just a flat ilvl. At least on the nights we are working on a new boss that we are having issues with.

Ant made a good point saying we should have someone to direct people to talk to if their dps is bad or w/e. I think for that to be effective we need to at least make a chart or spread sheet that shows who knows what best. Cause if you told a hunter to ask me what to do they would prolly end up much worse than they were before.

As for healing and tanking meters mean even less for them than dps. So I do not know how to measure that and would need help from some other people.

I feel like there will be a response to this post that is something along the lines of we almost never have subs etc. I just want to kill that now. We had one last time we had a dps issue and bey just posted that we are tied for #1 on the server, I imagine that this will drive the few players around towards applying here.

I feel as if im rambling a bit here but I feel that it goes without saying that if someone is under preforming and we dont have a replacement, we will just make due.


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Nagram

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re: What is under preforming?

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Easy.

Underperforming is when someone is significantly lower in dps/heals than everyone else and/or dying to fight mechanics like fire constantly.

There are obviously exceptions, but writing a book on it or making a spreadsheet seems like unnecessary work.


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Soulard

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the spread sheet idea is just so if someone is struggling we know who to send them to. nothing complicated.


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re: What is under preforming?

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For the most part I think "What is underperforming?" needs to be a real time decision, because every situation is different, but there are a few general guidlines we should follow.

If someone is struggling with any of the following, I would say they are underperforming (in order of priority).

1. Directions: Someone is not following the directions given to them by the raid leader.
2. Mechanics: Someone is not able to grasp the mechanics after multiple attempts.
3. Output: Someone does not have the DPS, healing, or survivability required to successfully complete the fight.

Prior to asking someone to leave the raid due to performance, the decision should be discussed in officer chat. The online officers/advisors should decide if the person should be replaced or not.

If no replacement is available the decision will obviously be to cancel the raid rather than replace the person.

If someone is underperformaing, whether they are removed from the raid or not, someone should talk to them about it before they log off for the night. It is not fair to the person to say they are underperforming, but not help them understand why or how to fix it. If the best person to help them is not online, someone still needs to talk to them about it.
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As far as 'underperforming' - it is any issue that significantly drops the performance of the raid based on the actions of a single person. Leal's post above is a great breakdown of some of those issues. Everyone needs to keep in mind, it is a JUDGEMENT CALL, and isn't necessarily 'right' or 'wrong'.

How do we (ideally) address it?

1) When the issue is first noticed, that's when you should bring it up in ochat, see if people are seeing what you're seeing. Then the RL or someone the RL wants in their place should PRIVATELY bring it to the attention of that player, and get more information. 'Your DPS is low, are you trying a new rotation/spec?' or 'You keep losing threat, are you using ability X and Y?' etc etc. Remember that the natural inclination to that line of questioning is to get defensive. Stick to facts, (which you would have if you'd RUN SOME FUCKING LOGS - Love, Ant) and if the person just isn't listening, see #2. If they are, see what can be fixed.

2) If it continues or can't be fixed quickly, then PRIVATELY let the player know you are replacing them for x reason. To the raid, just announce that you are replacing the player, thank them for their time, and pick up your replacement. The raid doesn't need to know why (and let's be honest, they already have a good idea).

Note from Bey: Don't be a dick. That's our job. Seriously. (see below)

This is something that the training program that has stalemated was specifically designed to address. Ant can work to get this going again, but will need the help to do it. We still need guides - we are going to post up links to icy-veins guides for the time being, and here's why. Think you've got a better idea? By all means, post to the guide! A list of potential candidates (victims) is going up once Ant gets squared away in the next week. If you want to volunteer to help (beat) interested raiders, talk to Ant.

The biggest help is to encourage everyone in the guild to participate in scenarios, heroics, LFR's, and most importantly, guild raids. Kilnbrez is back around, Carmane has a lot of potential on his priest and warrior, Crexit is moving on up, we have newer members like Killrshadow, Fireyrose, Grendell... who have expressed interest in raiding, some like Bronar and Talsun, are starting to sign up. It can be frustrating to ask in guild chat and get little response, so try to personally ask players when you can. One-on-one convos are key to encouraging newer members that may be intimidated by the established group into trying.


(below)

It is really encouraging to Ant and I to see this many people participating in the conversation in the first place. Despite the white elephant in the room, the plain fact is we really appreciate the effort being put forth by you all in getting to solutions and working together. We know it's frustrating as hell too, and butting-heads is going to happen. I want to make this clear though - raid leaders have the final say in what happens in the raid - and no one overrides that except Ant and I. It is the raid leader who will face the consequences of those decisions, and sometimes, those decisions will be bad, or executed poorly. Shit happens. - Bey


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Donbot-Dunemaul
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re: What is under preforming?

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Quick note before you read my post: I come from previous experiences both as a hardcore raider and a GM for a semi-serious raiding guild during Vanilla and TBC. I've done raiding 5+ nights a week for 3-4 hours per night. It burned me out and eventually led to me leaving the game for 5 years. I like our 2/3 nights of raiding for 2 hours and the laid back atmosphere that we have. It's fun without being too serious.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Not too long ago, I was probably the topic of a similar discussion. When I first started raiding with you guys, I was barely able to pull 50k DPS. I was fine in LFR, pulling 80-90k, but let's be clear that LFR is a total joke. You can stand there, pew pew, completely ignore the mechanics of the fight and still be successful. Normal 10 mans don't give you that luxury. If you don't know your shit, you die and in some instances ensure the failure of the entire group (ie cinders in an entire group).

My first raid, I got switched out on Garalon because I wasn't carrying my weight. I was happy to do so, because I knew I wasn't doing my best and I wanted the raid to succeed (which they did, downing Garalon for their first time).

The good news, the guild helps you out and it gets better. Ant pointed me towards the elitistjerks guide post here on the forums and Elvin gave me a lot of good pointers. I did the research to make myself perform better and worked my rotation until I could do it without even thinking about it. I'm still not great, but at least I can hold my own.

This guild does a great job at making people feel at home and handling situations like mine, where an underperforming member is asked to step out after several attempts. We want new people to feel welcome, but we also want the ones who are putting in their time every single week to have it pay off. We can help someone fix their rotations and boost their DPS, but it's not going to magically happen while we're trying to down a boss for the first time. People can't feel defeated if they are switched out for 'underperforming' on a progression boss.

I bring your attention to Raid Rule #4:
"4. Familiarize yourself with raid fights ahead of time. Sources like FatBoss on Youtube are full of instructional reading and videos (though not the only option)."

The greatest favor anyone can do for themselves when it comes to boosting their numbers is to read boss strats and practice it in LFR. Do the fights as close to the normal way as you can in an LFR. On Magaera, practice standing at max range and collapsing during the rampage, getting cinders out of the group, etc. Get used to having to be on your toes while still trying to get out as much DPS/healing as possible. There's only room for 10 people in a raid, if you're new and haven't even looked at/watched a strategy for the boss encounters, you are coming in already giving less than your 100%. Come into the raid and be able to say "I watched some videos of the encounters and/or read some of the strategies for the fights". This is what Heissenberg and Bankai did, is it just coincidence that they have become staples to our raiding group? I love that new people are signing up for the raids, but only if they are going to come prepared.

You get out of it what you put into it. I don't think we expect more out of anyone than we would expect out of ourselves.

PS. I will be running the FUCKING LOGS ANT, SO CHILL OUT BRO!! haha, j/k. But I will be running the logs from now on, so you can yell at me if it's not done.


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Soulard

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re: What is under preforming?

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I feel that it may come off that I am aimed too much at progress at the time, I just wanna kill that notion right now.

I could not agree with Donbots post more. That is 100% how I feel about the game.


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Nagram

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re: What is under preforming?

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OFF TOPIC! (kind of)

Don't worry guys. I will run logs. I've made posts about it and asked people in game to do it. I've had TWO people ask me to show them how, which I did. And added them to the guild on the site.

Has no one been running logs this whole time I've been gone? Shame on you fuckers.

Good news is I'm back. So I'LL RUN THE FUCKING LOGS. For crying out loud. Minor leaguers.


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Soulard

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re: What is under preforming?

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We just kinda always......forget


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