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Beysii
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re: WHITE ELEPHANT, also known as SHIT HAPPENS.

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Here's what I've heard:

"Elven and Yorell have quit because of ______________ ."

"Maybe."

"Nope, they've quit."


Possibilities of ________________ :

1) Gazran under-performing at the Weds. raid.

General consensus: Gazran was under-performing at the Weds. raid.

Two convos I have seen:

*) Within 5 minutes of Gazran leaving the raid, Ant was talking to him in tells. Gazran agreed with the general consensus, and cited issues with glyphs, talents and rotations. He was trying to build his spec himself, and had never heard of icy-veins. He is a PVP'er who has started PVE'ing recently and is learning from scratch. He did not indicate to Ant that he was upset as to how it was handled.

*) Pineapple and Ant have also talked. Pineapple said that while he did not sugarcoat the issue, he made it plain there was a problem and took a course of action, and that it was discussed in vent.

I wasn't there for the blow by blow, but I'll interject my opinion in anyhow:

*If* Pineapple was a dick, he shouldn't have been a dick. *If* people are being dicks to players in general, they need to stop being dicks. I have noticed in ochat specifically, a tendency to talk shitty. I myself chalk that up to being ochat. But if the comments that I personally heard in ochat before the raid like (paraphrasing here) wanting to kill yourself because you're taking Gaz, you're gonna have to replace him anyhow are carrying into the raid and moreover, being directed to Gaz himself, you're bad and you should feel bed. There IS alot of judgey talk in ochat about newer players, some I think is justified (Resto -is- fucking annoying) and some not, like things I've heard off of one or two runs with Kilnbrez, Gaz, and others. Don't piss and moan they suck until you've done what you can to help them. That's the fucking point of the guild. I don't have a problem with people being mouthy in ochat - that's what ochat is.

2) Loot priority

Loot priority - and I'm going to quote this here:

Pineaplexprs wrote:
...I would like to start giving the Duck and Kaz Loot priority ASAP. In a perfect world this would go into effect tonight, however I know this is a little close to the line.
---
Ok I am going to start tonight and let it run for the next two weeks. I am only giving priority to Kaz and Duck since they are really our only consistent healers, as far as attendance goes.


Facts:
Loot priority was given to healers based on attendance. Duck and Kaz qualified. We have been two-healing the raid for two weeks with consistent results. Priority was to last for two weeks.

What's the fucking malfunction, people?

Pineapple tried something out to help the raid. With my permission to do so. So if you're pissed about it, be pissed at me. We tried something. In the interim of trying it, based on great feedback from every advisor who participated (I wouldn't be giving bitches my haste gear either Nags) we discovered how little it would impact the loot structure overall, but that it could occasionally impact someone in a big way. Due to that, and not wanting to turn it into a loot council, we are finishing the two week period with no plans to continue it.

TL;DR? There was an idea to help the raid. We tried it. Didn't quite work out like we had hoped. Gonna end it.

SHIT HAPPENS.

I don't see where this is a big deal, and I certainly haven't heard one damned peep out of anyone who disagreed enough with it to speak up. Well then why the fuck are you here?

Bottom line is I don't know why Elvin and Yorell exactly left, and I'm really pissed the fuck off neither one of them think enough of us as a group to speak up. I'm disappointed because the reason Yorell, Elvin, all of you, are Advisors - I respect your opinions. I want them, I want to know what you think the problems are so that we can make them better. That doesn't mean I, or anyone, always will agree with them.

I will really miss you two if you decide to leave. I hope you don't. I hope the years we've personally spent together building our friendships and building this guild are worth enough to you guys to try and make this right. But frankly, while the rest of this team has been moving forward, trying to come up with new ideas and solutions, getting anything out of you two is like pulling teeth. COMMUNICATE, FFS. And no, saying something once in ochat in the midst of a raid and then being silent and sulky the rest of the night is not communicating. That's what we have all these fucking forums for. Get it out instead of turning into drama and blowing up into slammed doors and silence.

So I really hope the two of you let the rest of us know what in the fuck is going on.


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Deinari

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re: WHITE ELEPHANT, also known as SHIT HAPPENS.

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/agreement. To every bit of it.

I'm guilty of my own share of bitching in Ochat, I tend to use it as pseudo therapy. :P Some people I just don't click with, they rub me the wrong way and so I bitch about them (Hordemaster comes to mind) But, yeah, things don't need to leak out of there into raid or elsewhere.

First rule of Ochat is you don't talk about Ochat.

I don't understand the "zomg drama" over loot. I give Theo a hard time just to be a dick, but I really couldn't give a fuck about the tier gloves he totally jacked from me. (see? Jokes!) And most of the time, the shit we need doesn't even drop! (What is this, the 4th? week of straight agi gear from Horridon that almost nobody needs now?)

What the fuck happened to raiding being something fun to do with our friends? Thats what our fellow guildies are by the way, our FRIENDS. Nobody should be foaming at the mouth to be getting gear, its not the point of raiding.


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Yorell
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re: WHITE ELEPHANT, also known as SHIT HAPPENS.

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Sigh, Well, you did do a nice job of summing up the events of that night. And as always straight to the point.

Its not a direct implication of last nights events that we quit, although that definitely was the last straw for Elvin. In his own words, "he's broke" and doesn't give a damn anymore. I've found I've been following not far behind him myself.

As confusing as it all is, for me its come down to a single point. Progression vs Non-Progression. I honestly haven't given a damn about progression since I joined the guild waaaaaaay back in who knows when. I'm all about getting people involved in the raids, taking who ever, regardless of how undergeared people might think they are, and just raiding. Even if only one boss dies and nothing else, as long as the night was fun and new people got experience and had a great time. Nor have I agreed to kicking people unless it was so painfully apparent that they were such a giant issue that the raid just couldn't be done with them, even if it meant trying for hours on end before it came to that conclusion. In a way of self statement, I'm a guild person, not a raid person. Raids are all good if they're full of fun. And once upon a time there were people that shared that ideal to a T. (Some of you might say I'm just missing those who're gone, which is true I do miss them, but its for the reason that they thought the same) But I have constantly seen things over the past while that have shown me that sentiment is no longer hovering around like before. Things like, and I don't mean to single you out Kaz, Kaz groaning about taking Kiln, or Pineapple moaning about Gaz as Bey stated above. Or the moans and groans of wiping once on a boss that has been on farm for weeks, or even getting upset and irate about it, when I honestly laugh my ass off at seeing it happen just to show that we arnt bulletproof. Theres lots of little things that I just see and hear from people that add it all up. The bottom line of it all is, people want progression, even more so that fun or having an atmosphere that allows that kind of fun to occur. And by all means, I respect that the guild and the people in it have chosen that route. But in that same choice, theres no place for me in it. The past while I have been trying to defend and uphold ideals and morals that I thought the guild was based on and founded upon as a casual guild. Turns out I was wrong. And so I have stepped aside to allow the guild to run its course and continue on without my constant opposition. To me, and I know many of you wont agree, this guild lost what made it special in its quest to stay alive and further more in its quest to become more progression oriented. Honestly the guild felt like one huge ass family before, where there wasn't a night that I didn't come on and have a good time, but now it feels like just a bunch of raiders, that want to kill things, and I only show up to lend a hand out of loyalty and past devotion to the guild.

And so as confusing as it is, like I said, theres no place for me here in a progression guild, not to mention I cant function in a progression guild as I have no motivation at all to do anything. And so as I said, I'm stepping aside. And in turn, most likely quitting WoW too, since I no longer have a reason to play.

And in Elvin's terms of why he's quitting, its pretty similar to mine but I can sum it up in a few short sentences. "Was fun. Not fun anymore."

So all in all. Theres nothing to fix, nothing to be done. The guild is as it is, as it has chosen to be, so theres no need to worry. I've learned a lot here and made a lot of great memories, its been fun, I'll miss you all. And I wish you all good luck with your future raids, and I hope you guys achieve something big.


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Yorell
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re: WHITE ELEPHANT, also known as SHIT HAPPENS.

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And Kaz, I've always been against loot priority like that because I follow the basic principle that if you downed the boss, you were just as equal as everyone else for a shot at it. Not to mention that I've been in guilds that have done that, Elvin as well (actually Elvin g quit because of a rule like that previously), where those rules discouraged people from raiding not to mention it discouraged myself from raiding then. And to top it off the rule was pretty much nothing but a big confusion sign for people that were new to raiding and didn't understand, especially since the loot both of you got was very specific and rarely used by another spec let alone class anyways. But I digress, my opinion no longer matters.


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Yorell
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And yes, as bey said. Something new was tried, it didn't work, get over it. Which I have, all I did was express concern over it, it wasn't a giant explosion of water balloons or I would of wrote more in my post in the other thread.


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Covinas
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I don’t want to spend a bunch of time writing up a huge reply reiterating things that have been already stated. However, I would like to point out a few things.

Loot Priority: Never been an issue. We 2 heal fights that should otherwise be 3 healed and healing is the toughest job out there anyways. As i've stated before, I wouldnt roll on Hit gear anyways, so dont roll on my spirit gear!

Replacing Raid Members - Gaz: We've replaced people for less in past expansions.

Raiding for Fun: Progression is fun. Wiping on the same boss 100 times because of other peoples gear....not fun.

Re: Elvin and Yorll: Sad to see you guys go. It's a little upsetting that you guys would leave because of something as small as this. I'd like to see more about elvin's POV since he's been raiding with us and well Yorell really has not. If you guys feel you need to quit, take care and bai bai Happy


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Yorell
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I understand your views on it duck, I respect that. But let me point out to you the difference in our thoughts.

These "small things" as you call them are as you say, small things. Yet those small things mean everything to me. As for you calling raid progression fun, thats your opinion and as I said earlier it is the share opinion currently. And lastly, you go back to the events of the past week as if you assume I'm taking them as some huge cataclysmic event that caused all of this to happen. Which is not the case at all. As you said they were small things and they just got piled onto the heap I was already carrying. Which in turn, was all I could carry anymore.

But theres no use in arguing with me about whats right and whats wrong, I've already made my decision and from my view point its the right thing to do. I dont expect any of you to understand it or agree with it anyways.


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Deinari

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Yorell, I do understand you though. I've hung my hat here longer that almost anyone. I've put up with a LOT of bullshit and I've done my share of fucking shit up. I feel partially responsible for how the guild is now and I do feel a little guilty that it's causing you to leave. But at the end of the day, if you're not happy we have no right to try to keep you

I feel like this change came from having a huge ass raiding stagnancy in Catacylsm. The guild was basically a ghost town and raids just never happened. Damesh really wanted to raid and so did I, so he started putting pug groups for BoT and BWD, until we could start trying Firelands with guildies.

Fast forward to MoP. After having a semi-successful time in Dragon Soul, we looked at the new expansion to start over. To not let the guild stagnate anymore and to down stuff while it's still relevant. Maybe we let our pride get a bit over the top about it.


I'm not in your head, Yorell. I can only infer from your posts about how you're feeling, so I could be completely off base here. I'm sad that you and Elvin want to go but again, we have no right to keep you.

<3 Kaz


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Beysii
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Thanks for responding, Yorell. At the end of the day, you're right: Your opinion is your opinion. Hearing more of our newer members speak up and refute the point that we are alienating newer members makes me feel like we ARE on the right track, and if it's not your track, it's not your track. It's been great having you around and I'm sorry to see you go.

Good luck and best wishes,
-Bey


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Yorell
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Thanks Kaz, and dont feel bad. Its not like any of us were there to help you guys during firelands, and in the end this is the general consensus that this is how the guild should be anyways.
And you too bey, thanks for understanding my opinion.

Thanks for all the fun times and memories you guys have given me over the years. I'll never forget blowing out ant's ears :p Hopefully I'll still see you guys around somewhere. Good luck to you all!

PS: Kaz, my name on league is Triaminic. Look me up if you guys wanna play. Me, Elvin and Marshall can usually be found somewhere on there. And no, I aint no badass high level concerned with rank haha.


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Deinari

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Yorellheals wrote:


PS: Kaz, my name on league is Triaminic. Look me up if you guys wanna play. Me, Elvin and Marshall can usually be found somewhere on there. And no, I aint no badass high level concerned with rank haha.



Fack. I'll add you as soon as my league starts working again >_< it keep getting this weird "Maestro is not working" error

(And don't worry, I'm terrible at league and only play for shits and giggles :D)


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Yorell
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Sometimes antiviruses cause that, like avast or norton. But theres alot of guides out already on how to fix it. Google away!


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Covinas
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It's all good, yorell. If the direction we are headed is not the way you want to go, then the only other option is to part ways. Sad as i am to see you guys go, i wish nothing but the best and I'm sure we'll see you later on down the line. Take care of yourselves!


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You're a fucking asshole Yorell. How could you do this to me?


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Yorell
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I know right? I'm leaving you alone. With THEM! I pray you somehow retain what little sanity you have left :p


And thanks duck, good luck to you too!


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