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Beysii
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re: It's one of -Those- Bey posts.

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Everyone's been pretty much in the dark as to what the fuck is going on, and I will try to explain it as thoroughly as I can, as well as break it down into more manageable sections.


Topic #1 -THURSDAY -

With Yorell and Elvin leaving, we could only take their words for face value - and they weren't adding up. I am the only person who had read some chat logs from Yorell and Ant and I was getting the same thing I got from his post - an argument that felt like it was missing something. Why so pissed over a two week loot priority? What's wrong with progression? We were a 'progression' raid in Wrath - we just sucked at it. So like the rest of you I didn't get it and felt that if those were the reasons well then ok, peace.

Thursday changed that for me.

Here's the basics on that: Convo with Kaz, Don, and Nags (other people may have been online, but didn't really participate as I recall)

Kaz had suggested to Ant that we should include in the rules that we require raiders to be gemmed and enchanted. I logged to get an understanding as to why, because that info is and has been plainly in the signups for some time.

It boiled down to Gaz again. Gaz wasn't gemmed/chanted well, and there were some people who were pissed off about him being allowed to raid. As I did in the convo that day, I'm going to break down why that anger is misplaced - in my mind.

Gaz was asked to raid. He did not sign up. While I know there are differing opinions to this, as far as I am concerned, that's the end of the conversation in terms of what to 'do' about it. It was a bad choice to bring someone that wasn't prepared, and as Pineapple invited him, that's on Pineapple. Now Pineapple made that decision based on some vague words from Ant about Gaz improving, and he had - but he still wouldn't have met requirements had he signed up. This goes into that 'shit happens' category. I'm not gonna eviscerate Pineapple for making a bad call on bringing him, because shit happens.

It was also suggested that it was 'unfair' that Gaz won a weapon over Heissenburg. I'm not so long removed from raiding I don't know what an absolute bitch it is to watch someone who has been consistently raiding and helping the raid lose a coveted piece of gear to someone who hasn't. It sucks. Perhaps it was just poor wording during the convo, but let me clear. It was FAIR. It's been in the loot rules for YEARS. If you are a member of the raid, and the raid downs a boss, you have rights to roll on any loot that is appropriate for you and WIN it when you roll the highest. If I ever find out about an instance of loot being handed to someone who did not get the winning roll, I will (other than in an extreme case of someone being nasty or just an outright accident) kick that loot master from this guild. That is NOT how Sundesmos operates, nor will it ever be while Ant and I are around.

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It was in the midst of this conversation, that for whatever reason, I -got- what Yorell was trying to say. It's not about a temporary loot priority, and it's not about being 'progression' - it was about the tone that is being carried by our raiding advisors. I've called it out myself before, and I don't need to be in the raid to see it when its consistently on display in ochat. For weeks now, there's been disparaging comments about newer raiders trying to come in, there's been opinions tossed around about some players/roles being more important than others, and there's just plain been alot of shitty talk.

During and after the convo on Thurs, Ant and I had convos with Nags and Leal to widen our perspective on the issue, and got basically the same feedback. The tone is more negative and very serious about progression, progression, progression - sometimes at the expense of other players.

In another post I am going to throw out some ideas I've bounced off Pineapple, Ant, and Yorell about potential ways to improve this from a logistics standpoint, including the addition of Yorell as a RL, multiple groups, etc, but not here.

Here I'm going to say this:

I recognize and agree that the attitude/tone of the raiding advisors and the RL has moved from being 'about the guild' to 'about the raid'. While I do still hold to the belief that ochat is the venting station, it has become WAY too negative and condescending towards newer players. Not gonna get Megaera down because you've got a n00b or two in the raid? Guess what, you're not going to get her down. BFD. It's a game. Progression < Inclusion. If a raider meets the requirements, they go. Not up to snuff? Help them get better. Everyone in advisor has known what the training plan is for sometime, and I'm disappointed that I've only heard of Yorell, Elvin, and Pineapple taking the initiative to reach out to players while the plan stagnated due to Ant's workload IRL. If more of you have, I haven't heard it, so I apologize for not giving you an atta-boy because you deserve one too.

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-If- Gazran had signed up with no gems and enchants, Pineapple would be 100% in his rights to deny Gaz going, as well as any player who does not meet the requirements set forth in the rules or the specific signup notes.
I have no problems with substitutions to improve raid performance if someone is not performing well - and it is a judgement call, and it won't always make everyone happy. I stand by Pineapple's decision to replace him in raids as needed because he WAS under performing significantly. I don't stand by holding it against Gaz for the rest of his life, and that's what it 'sounds' like some people are doing. I'm also getting the impression that because Ant did have a convo with Gaz, Gaz should have known better. A PVP'er coming to 3-4 raids does not make a raider. It takes persistent coaching and effort. He is still learning, and perhaps a little slow on the uptake. Some people are. It is what it is.

TL;DR?
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Topic #2 - YORELL AND ELVIN RETURN FROM SPACE AND WHERE PINEAPPLE COMES IN-

I've thus far been in defense of Yorell and Elvin's complaints, but I'm not here to defend Yorell and Elvin.

Yorell and Elvin were wrong for not bringing the issue up -PLAINLY- to the rest of the advisors or to Ant and I until they were so pissed they couldn't see straight. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Did I mention wrong?

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This is where the WHITE ELEPHANT turns into SHIT HAPPENS.

We've always given a free pass, and that hasn't changed. Yorell is returning as an advisor, and if Elvin chooses to come back he will be a senior member and may return to an Advisor after I get down chewing his ass out like I did Yorell. Believe me, ass was chewed.

I nibbled on Pineapple too. He tastes better than Yorell, he's Pineapple, after all. Without speaking for him, here's what we came up with:

* Being the RL means that you indirectly set the tone for the raid and the raiders, and that's something that could use some work.

* Loot priority, even temporary, will no longer be considered going forward. We tried it and figured out in the first week it wasn't going to work. (Again, I still FULLY SUPPORT Pineapple bringing up and trying it, and continue to encourage you all to communicate potential change up's and ideas to the Advisor Forums. I'm never against trying something if it sounds like a potential solution.)

* Hearing that these issues were being consistently noticed by nearly every other Advisor without being brought to his attention until now kinda sucked.

- Having just been in those shoes (SEE MEME ABOVE), I understand that completely. One of the things covered in the Carving of Canada is this 'idea' that we see a problem, and then we sit on it so as not to cause drama. This isn't just a Canadian way of thinking, either. In fact, nearly every time someone does that, IT BLOWS UP INTO SHIT FOR NO GOOD REASON. If you think something is 'off', say it's 'off' before it becomes 'wrong' and then becomes 'ARRRRRHHHHHH'. If you're worried about hurt feelings or have personality issues, let Ant and I know so we can bring it up. Please give us more credit than that we're going to go to someone and say 'Duckburg thinks you're a twat.'

Please, PLEASE - start talking and being more open with one another about what's going on and what could be done differently/better. If you think the pace of raid is off, mention it to Pineapple. If you feel like it's a drag anymore to raid, say something to Donbot. If it seems the raid leaders either are ignoring it or supporting the issue and you disagree still, bring it to us - even better, What I really wish more people would do - bring it to the FORUMS. You don't have to bare your soul, but saying 'It's not the same' doesn't tell us shit. You are going to name names and point out things that can be critical, and I expect everyone to keep their fucking hats on when it happens. There are some definite personality flare-ups in our merry band of misfits and it's no secret, so if you really think your comment is gonna start a shit-storm, then that's when to get Ant and I in the picture.

TL;DR - Too bad, go back and read from the *'s down.




Topic #3 -MORE ABOUT PINEAPPLE-

I like pineapple rings with my ham.
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Seriously though, in talking to Pineapple, I am greatly encouraged that this too shall pass. He's been open to everything that has been brought to him and has recognized where he can make improvements with how he leads and supports the raids, and I really want to say - If you have a problem, talk to Pineapple. He WILL listen and he will listen with an open mind.

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TL;DR - Now you're just being lazy.




In closing:

I'm out of memes. Feel free to respond with your own. We've gotten to the root of the problem and now we can work on fixing it. If there's other problems that haven't been mentioned, then please speak up. If you disagree with what's been said, please speak up. Particularly you Leal, because you have awesome things to say and never say them.


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Covinas
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re: It's one of -Those- Bey posts.

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Naggers, your a Twat. There i feel better. I think these are all great points. I really have nothing to add here. There's really no need for any of the hostility between our raiders, but you know how we do... If atleast 4 of us arent trying to shank one another, something is wrong with the world :P I generally try to stay neutral between everyone and I've done a little bit of coaching with healers as my schedule will allow. Even just reccomending wesites like Icy Veins or askmrrobot to people can give people great improvments. Anyhow, Loved the meme's :D


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Just hopping in to say Bey. I love you. <3 Ant I am stealing her and keeping her for my own


and I am now going back into my hole.

Over and out
Yorell
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re: It's one of -Those- Bey posts.

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Yeah, I'll acknowledge it myself here. I screwed up, and I screwed up big time. I didn't bring up the problem, nor did I know really how to explain the problem. Straight up, I failed in my role as an advisor. Which means, I have a lot of work to do to make up for it. Which I will get right on.

And I agree with all of Bey's post. Except the part about pineapple rings, those things make me sick T.T

And in turn from Bey's post, from now on, I'm scrapping my "low key, let it slide and be quiet on it" attitude. From now on, if I don't like something, you're gonna hear about it, either the person doing it or everyone in total. Cause as we have just seen from this truly humbling experience, it doesn't work. Ever.

Other than that, I'm looking forward to breaking out the Windex, cleaning up, and walking on :D Or walking, driving, boating, as long as it aint motorboating.


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re: It's one of -Those- Bey posts.

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I dunno. I kind of enjoy the quarterly dramas.


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re: It's one of -Those- Bey posts.

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Also.

Re: Training program

I've been very open to JD that I'm not on-board. But I guess I need to make it openly known to more. I think it's dumb. I'm not here to babysit. I already have a job. Unlike some, I don't like dealing with the logistics a guild. I like, well, liked playing the game.

I get the feeling other people are in the same boat. We can only be stretched so thin imo. It's for some people, it's not for others.


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Yorell
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I cant disagree there nags. The idea isnt for everyone, nor does everyone have the time to be around and assist those players that need help. I think the post is more for those who can do it or are onboard to do it. And you're right, its just a game. And people play games to have fun, not to do work. I dont think anyone should be forced into assisting with the training program if they dont want to. And DONT WORRY! I wont make you feel guilty for not helping! :P


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Im not against the training program but I feel like its sort of a dud anyways. And I agree with nags to a point, but then again I really like helping people so it dosnt bother me personally.

The only time I have really seen anyone getting help is not when they ask for it themselves, its when we need raiders so we decided its time to get them up to par.


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You're touching on one of the realities of it all. We can hope for the cream to rise to the top, but for the most part it's a proactive program to try and hook people INTO raiding. That's part of what I've been doing the last few days - selling it to people. I fully intend to try and push it on everyone that joins, I just need to setup the administrative back end for it now.


And as far as participation from Advisors, it's completely voluntary, so if you don't have the time or stomach for it, you don't have to help with it.

I hope to shoulder as much of the initial conversations as best as I can, but once I get everything setup it should hopefully be easier for anyone who cares to help to do so on their own. Stay tuned there.


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